Curse

Sha Noran · Nov 27, 2006, 08:53 AM // 08:53

W00t finally got the dumb post to edit. Rawr.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

I'm not here to simply be antagonistic.

Your first post indicated otherwise. ;-)

I know what O's Cry does beyond what it's most obvious effect is. It's still not worth the slot. Ever. There are tons of better skills that can go in the slot you'd be using for that.

Silk Weaver · Nov 27, 2006, 10:01 AM // 10:01

No, I'm here to speak out my opinion, which if -you- don't find useful, at least many others do or agree with.

It's important to note these facts, even if you don't like it. You completley ignored the other effect, however, and mentioned nothing of the armor buff, which means incompletle information. For this reason, I'm not even convinced that you really did know it beforehand. What you said before did not show it. It's like saying that crippling shot is a pindown that cannot be blocked or evaded, ignoring the recharge time completely.

anshin · Nov 27, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

If your objective is to take out single targets as fast as possible, then I would suggest you choose another prep besides Apply Poison. Apply is a great skill, but is an energy heavy choice if you are only targetting one enemy. Poison Arrow {E} isn't a bad idea, but you may want to choose Burning Arrow since it does more direct damage and is an easy skill to cap in NF as opposed to Poison Arrow that is deep in Prophecies. I would agree with Sir Mad's suggestion to choose a warrior type IAS in your build as opposed to Quick Shot. Flurry may be a good option if you go with a prep such as Kindle Arrows or Read the Wind. Flurry will reduce the base damage of your attacks, but won't reduce any bonus damage you do with your attack skills and your preps. Burning Arrow with Screaming Shot will also result in a 10 health degen on your target, which is the maximum health degen one may experience. (you can inflict more than 10 degen, but it will only counter any additional health regen an enemy may have). If you were to make these adjustments, your build may be as follows:

Burning Arrow {E}
Distracting Shot
Screaming Arrow
Kindle Arrows or Read the Wind
Whirling Defenses
Flurry
Capture Signet or Troll Unguent
Rez

If you run Read the Wind, I would suggest you use a Flatbow if you can to maximize your refire rate (since all bows under Read the Wind have minimum arc), but your longbow should be fine either way. You could likely lower your expertise to 12 if you find that you are stable with energy since 12 is the cutoff for 10 energy skills (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Expertise) and invest more in wilderness survival for Kindle Arrows if you choose as well.

Just remember to take all suggestions as a grain of salt and find what you are comfortable with. After all, it doesn't matter how effective your build is if you aren't enjoying the game.

you know....after your previous post i started thinking and i came up with exactly the same idea

i always have fun playing

anyways....i try to concentrate on 5 energy builds...that is why i think the Quick Needler build is the best one... except i would change probably savage for distracting...and the antidote signet....i would dismiss that too because i like to depend on the monks...so...i have two free slots to bring rez + troll or any other 5 energy attack skill....perhaps savage and distracting together...

what do you think of this build? i would use this build with two ranger heroes and one monk hero....this would do alot of damage like that right?

XvArchonvX · Nov 27, 2006, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by anshin

what do you think of this build? i would use this build with two ranger heroes and one monk hero....this would do alot of damage like that right?

Hmm, I'll admit first off that I generally prefer to use an IAS over Quickshot. I was reading the discussion on this build and at one point someone noted that they thought this did about as much damage as a warrior using an IAS and no attack skills, which sounded realistic to me. This, however, is not to say that a warrior with an IAS would always be better because this build does have a more reliable dps since a ranger can maintain dps on running targets by use of their bow. Needling shot is easily the strongest point of the build since you can deal a strong bit of damage at foes under 50% health with Needling's insane refire rate. Also the bonus of RtW is not reduced by Needling, so it will a constant 28 damage at the attributes listed on the build.

Personally, I would prefer Barrage over this in PvE. If you try a comparison of Barrage to Quickshot with RtW on a single target you will find that Barrage does more damage per hit (since the damage bonus of the skill is larget than the bonus from RtW), but has a slightly slower attack rate. I didn't get real deep into numbers to calculate which did more dps on a single target, but I really don't think there was much of a difference. When you take into account that Barrage can double it's damage when even one other foe is adjacent to your target, then Barrage will win out in dps by a strong margin.

I wouldn't say that because of this Barrage is always better than quickshot because sometimes it helps to simply dish out attacks on a target as quickly as possible (ex: if you are teamed with a necro that uses Barbs or Mark of Pain). Quickshot is also a bit more reliable on hitting it's target which can be advantageous against moving targets.

If you decide that you do want to run Quickshot, then I would say the suggested build is a solid way to use it. Sha has a build that is very similar, but I think I would choose the one on Wiki over his since it allows a greater investment into Expertise since it uses no Wilderness Survival skills. If you want to put a running skill in like Sha did, I would suggest Dodge/Zohjun's Haste.

I hope that helps on your decision. If you haven't yet, I would suggest you click the discussion tab at the build from Guru and read up on other people's experiences from when they tested it.

anshin · Nov 27, 2006, 06:36 PM // 18:36

thanks

gonna do that

you make a pretty good point about barrage making more damage...

but barrage takes about two seconds to "strike" and quickshot can strike twice in two seconds making the more damage being compensated by the quickness of the skill...

i think i am right on this one >.<

anyways i will look on the discussion...

thanks again

Sha Noran · Nov 27, 2006, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

No, I'm here to speak out my opinion, which if -you- don't find useful, at least many others do or agree with.

It's important to note these facts, even if you don't like it. You completley ignored the other effect, however, and mentioned nothing of the armor buff, which means incompletle information. For this reason, I'm not even convinced that you really did know it beforehand. What you said before did not show it. It's like saying that crippling shot is a pindown that cannot be blocked or evaded, ignoring the recharge time completely.

"Many others" as in, the handful of other outspoken people who have disagreed with the thread the whole time. "Many" is a word that could be used for the masses of people who have thanked me vigorously for the help. But I digress.

O's Cry is a joke of a skill, and always has been, even though now it's even more obvious because there are even more Beast Mastery skills that trump it. I have a very good friend and guildie who most enjoys playing as a Beast Master (much to my chagrin frequently, heh) who has always laughed at O's Cry. It has never been playable over other skills. Yes there's an armor bonus. Who cares? It's not a good skill.

Regardless, it hardly bothers me that you aren't convinced whether I knew about the armor or not. Believe what you want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Hmm, I'll admit first off that I generally prefer to use an IAS over Quickshot. I was reading the discussion on this build and at one point someone noted that they thought this did about as much damage as a warrior using an IAS and no attack skills, which sounded realistic to me. This, however, is not to say that a warrior with an IAS would always be better because this build does have a more reliable dps since a ranger can maintain dps on running targets by use of their bow. Needling shot is easily the strongest point of the build since you can deal a strong bit of damage at foes under 50% health with Needling's insane refire rate. Also the bonus of RtW is not reduced by Needling, so it will a constant 28 damage at the attributes listed on the build.

Personally, I would prefer Barrage over this in PvE. If you try a comparison of Barrage to Quickshot with RtW on a single target you will find that Barrage does more damage per hit (since the damage bonus of the skill is larget than the bonus from RtW), but has a slightly slower attack rate. I didn't get real deep into numbers to calculate which did more dps on a single target, but I really don't think there was much of a difference. When you take into account that Barrage can double it's damage when even one other foe is adjacent to your target, then Barrage will win out in dps by a strong margin.

I wouldn't say that because of this Barrage is always better than quickshot because sometimes it helps to simply dish out attacks on a target as quickly as possible (ex: if you are teamed with a necro that uses Barbs or Mark of Pain). Quickshot is also a bit more reliable on hitting it's target which can be advantageous against moving targets.

If you decide that you do want to run Quickshot, then I would say the suggested build is a solid way to use it. Sha has a build that is very similar, but I think I would choose the one on Wiki over his since it allows a greater investment into Expertise since it uses no Wilderness Survival skills. If you want to put a running skill in like Sha did, I would suggest Dodge/Zohjun's Haste.

I hope that helps on your decision. If you haven't yet, I would suggest you click the discussion tab at the build from Guru and read up on other people's experiences from when they tested it.

Perfectly summed up Archon (whether I'd like to admit it or not ;-) ). Sorry to not address you directly anshin, but Archon has been beating me to the punch with your questions and not leaving much, if any, room to expand. I'll chime in more thoroughly if Archon leaves anything out.

XvArchonvX · Nov 27, 2006, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

O's Cry is a joke of a skill, and always has been, even though now it's even more obvious because there are even more Beast Mastery skills that trump it.

Actually the only other pet protection skill that is even remotely similar to O's Cry since Prophecies is Predatory Bond and even then Predatory Bond heals the pet and does not reduce damage, which is important in evolving a dire pet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

It has never been playable over other skills. Yes there's an armor bonus. Who cares? It's not a good skill.

The advantage of the skill was not to allow one to replace another skill, but to work in conjunction with another pet protection skill in order to reduce damage when training a dire pet.

Personally I think this may be best resolved if the statement on O's Cry were to read something along the lines of:
"Otyugh’s Cry is a skill that only really finds use in a beastmaster who is training their pet towards dire. Despite the AoE armor buff it provides, Call of Protection is a better alternative in most scenarios."

Epinephrine · Nov 27, 2006, 09:03 PM // 21:03

As a somewhat reputed beastmaster, I'll say that Otyugh's Cry is not a bad skill. I use it. In fact, when I run with pet-using heroes, with 4 pets on the go, it is a staple that at least one of us has it. The 20 AL is pretty handy when 4 pets get affected.

Running with 15 Beastmastery, a Call of Protection and a Symbiotic Bond a pet with 100AL (thanks to the Otyugh's Cry) can take a hit that would deal 80 damage to an AL 60 caster and suffer 0 damage. A 119 damage Fireball deals a whopping 10 damage.

How much of that is the Otyugh's Cry? Without it the 80 damage hit would have dealt 8 damage, and the fireball would have dealt 22 or so. Obviously the bigger the hit the more difference the armour makes. 20 AL is nothing to sneeze at though, and when it's as cheap as 5 energy for 30 seconds on 4 tanks it's worth looking at.

anshin · Nov 27, 2006, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Perfectly summed up Archon (whether I'd like to admit it or not ;-) ). Sorry to not address you directly anshin, but Archon has been beating me to the punch with your questions and not leaving much, if any, room to expand. I'll chime in more thoroughly if Archon leaves anything out.

Sha...despite Archon gets ahead of you you can still say wether you agree with him or not

anyways...about the beast mastery skill that you guys talk about...

think about this... have you asked "real" BM to come here comment? no...all i see is rangers that don't even like Beast Master commenting on a skill of something they don't like...

Epinephrine is a pet user...so he should know better than any of you guys right?

anyways....thanks for all the help

and i will keep checking this arguement out because it all comes down to taste but you guys haven't figured that out yet

one more thing... all of you complained about how Sha adressed his "explanation" of the skills and that way would disencourage newbies...

let me say this... any newbie that really wants to learn how to be a good ranger simply WON'T rely on only one guide...

the rest who just want another char to fill a slot and say they have alot of lvl20s...too bad for them...

Sha Noran · Nov 27, 2006, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Personally I think this may be best resolved if the statement on O's Cry were to read something along the lines of:
"Otyugh’s Cry is a skill that only really finds use in a beastmaster who is training their pet towards dire. Despite the AoE armor buff it provides, Call of Protection is a better alternative in most scenarios."

Actually I removed the statement on O's Cry entirely. It would help if people checked out the edits I make to the guide when I make them. :-P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

As a somewhat reputed beastmaster, I'll say that Otyugh's Cry is not a bad skill. I use it. In fact, when I run with pet-using heroes, with 4 pets on the go, it is a staple that at least one of us has it. The 20 AL is pretty handy when 4 pets get affected.

Running with 15 Beastmastery, a Call of Protection and a Symbiotic Bond a pet with 100AL (thanks to the Otyugh's Cry) can take a hit that would deal 80 damage to an AL 60 caster and suffer 0 damage. A 119 damage Fireball deals a whopping 10 damage.

How much of that is the Otyugh's Cry? Without it the 80 damage hit would have dealt 8 damage, and the fireball would have dealt 22 or so. Obviously the bigger the hit the more difference the armour makes. 20 AL is nothing to sneeze at though, and when it's as cheap as 5 energy for 30 seconds on 4 tanks it's worth looking at.

Your input is appreciated. Yes, there are uses for it. There are just not really scenarios where you'd use it over another skill. I removed my statement on it from the guide because I didn't feel like going into detail. The link to Ep and Jen's guide is enough to take care of everyone's BM questions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by anshin

Sha...despite Archon gets ahead of you you can still say wether you agree with him or not

I agree with him. Specifically you should note that there's almost always a better choice than Quick Shot (ALMOST). If you're dealing damage, Burning Arrows, if you need some interrupts, Punishing, etc. Quick Shot reminds me of 100 Blades for Warrior really; it's nice and all, but there's almost always a better option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by anshin

think about this... have you asked "real" BM to come here comment? no...all i see is rangers that don't even like Beast Master commenting on a skill of something they don't like...

Epinephrine is a pet user...so he should know better than any of you guys right?

You underestimate the people discussing the topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by anshin

it all comes down to taste but you guys haven't figured that out yet

Not exactly. There are instances where two skills and their benefits are so difficult to pick between that it is preferance. In many, many cases however, one skill is directly better than another. Penetrating Attack is better than Power Shot; this is not a preferance, this is simply a fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by anshin

one more thing... all of you complained about how Sha adressed his "explanation" of the skills and that way would disencourage newbies...

let me say this... any newbie that really wants to learn how to be a good ranger simply WON'T rely on only one guide...

the rest who just want another char to fill a slot and say they have alot of lvl20s...too bad for them...

Well said.

anshin · Nov 27, 2006, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

You underestimate the people discussing the topic.

yes...i don't know anyone so i am probably mistaken in that one...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Not exactly. There are instances where two skills and their benefits are so difficult to pick between that it is preferance. In many, many cases however, one skill is directly better than another. Penetrating Attack is better than Power Shot; this is not a preferance, this is simply a fact.

in that one you are right....but not always that happens

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Well said.

occasionally i do say smart things

thanks for the support

simone · Nov 30, 2006, 03:28 AM // 03:28

ok shorten this down; what is the best build for a ranger?!

simone · Nov 30, 2006, 03:29 AM // 03:29

huh?huhhhhhhhhh???

XvArchonvX · Nov 30, 2006, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by simone

ok shorten this down; what is the best build for a ranger?!

There is no "best build" for a ranger, only a build that is best for the situation. Even then, personal play style often makes one build more effective for one person, while another build may be best for another.

.defekt · Nov 30, 2006, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Oh Sha Noran, how do I be as good as you?

<3

Darkpower Alchemist · Nov 30, 2006, 11:32 PM // 23:32

I've read the long and short of the thread so far and I have to say that the arguement has some facts,but more opinions,as should be expected when referring to a person's personal preferences on builds.

Archon has made many solid points, even though he and I have disagreed in the past,I respect his opinion on the matter of Ranger builds and uses. He seems to know well what he is doing with a ranger.

The guide is useful and informative, but is a touch tainted by more opinion than may be needed by a beginner unless you are taking them under your wing as a ranger in training. However,that is just my opinion.

The bow and equipment explainations are dead on, even if a touch vague. Also,the Oath shot useage arguement was well attended to by Archon as well. As he would be more than likely to agree, Oath Shot is situational, and thus, not great in every place but far from useless.

I have recently been running a trapper/Archer build with Burning Arrow as my elite, and it is definitely one of the shining skills in the ranger line in general. I used the following in a degen build that mixed trapping;

Troll Unguent
Apply Poison
Screaming Shot
Savage Shot
Burning Arrow
Dust Trap
Barbed Trap
Sunspear Rebirth Signet

IMHO,this build works in every area of Elona thus far, save places where elementals are dominant, then I would switch to another preparation besides Apply Poison. no skin, no bleeding or poison,but they do get set on fire.

Barrage works in mob filled areas such as at the end of Tyria missions and throughout most of Cantha. It is extremely situational when you get to Elona. Thus, it shows that is not the elite of elites for a ranger. I still like it though.

In short,rangers aren't meant to meat out the same damage as a warrior, but be the middle ground to seperate and take the team to the next level in any and all confrontations. They are so useful that they can always be used in a team.

Sheriff · Dec 01, 2006, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Hi all,

Was wondering if anyone has managed to do any reliable sword R/W build for PvE, now that we have heroes and the new Nightfall skills?

I am not looking for anything "uber", just something that's reliable, instead of being a liability instead

I looked into some new elites like Scavenger Focus (combine with gash) or Expert's Dexterity (maybe use with balanced stance and spam desperation blow), but still can't see anything really useful

Thanks in advance for any ideas

XvArchonvX · Dec 01, 2006, 04:36 PM // 16:36

@ Darkpower:
I don't see anything wrong with running traps in a bow based build for PvE, but I don't see how you can pull them off without having some sort of evasive stance in there.

@ Sheriff:
I've been running through Elona using a Thumper build similar to the following:
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Bunny_Thumper (see the second of the two builds)
The only difference is that I run with Disrupting Lunge instead of Beastial Mauling.

You could probably do something similar if you want to go with Sword attacks, but you will probably want to focus on straight damage dealing attacks rather than the sever/gash combo since you will gain a lot of adrenaline quickly with the 33% IAS from RaO, but reapplying the same conditions won't do much.

If you do use RaO with a sword build, make sure to have a zealous weapon since it will allow you to spam energy req attack skills relatively well.

SnipiousMax · Dec 01, 2006, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

@ Sheriff:
I've been running through Elona using a Thumper build similar to the following:
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Bunny_Thumper (see the second of the two builds)
The only difference is that I run with Disrupting Lunge instead of Beastial Mauling.

Same here, I rotate my skills around though, I use Disrupting Lunge, but sometimes I take Distracting Blow for a more precise interrupt.

I also switch from Hammer Bash + Crushing to Mighty Blow + Mokele Smash from time to time.

XvArchonvX · Dec 01, 2006, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Same here, I rotate my skills around though, I use Disrupting Lunge, but sometimes I take Distracting Blow for a more precise interrupt.

I also switch from Hammer Bash + Crushing to Mighty Blow + Mokele Smash from time to time.

Hmm, I might have to try that sometime. I tried the Beastial Mauling variation and I found that while it can be REALLY effective on a single monk, but I found that it often works better in theory than in practive since the pet attack isn't completely reliable.